Episode 13 - Neuroinclusion Starts When We Change Systems

A single offhand comment can echo for years, and in workplaces it often hides in plain sight as “feedback”, “banter”, or “just how things are done”. We talk openly about how stigma shows up in real working life, from social stereotypes to internalised self-talk, and why micro stigma is so damaging. When you start making yourself smaller to fit in, that is not a personality flaw, it is a signal the environment is asking you to mask. 

We also dig into the questions that cut through the noise: who is the workplace designed for, who has to mask to survive, and who gets labelled difficult. From there we tackle the strategy gap that so many organisations fall into, plenty of awareness and not enough follow-through. Neuroinclusion is not a shiny programme; it is everyday practice: clear communication, psychological safety, flexible work design, autonomy, and leadership that listens and then actually changes something. 

Along the way, we share lived experiences of being told our natural communication is “too much”, “too blunt” or “too formal”, and how that can knock confidence and increase rejection sensitivity. We offer practical ways to rebuild your voice, including scripts like “I work best when…”, written agendas that make meetings safer, and manager questions that focus on removing blockers. We also zoom out to systems: redesigning processes with the people who use them, closing the feedback loop with “you said, we did”, embedding values through behaviour, and making sensory adjustments that stop punishing difference. 

If you want neurodiversity and workplace inclusion to be more than posters on a wall, press play. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave us a review so more people find the conversation.

Transcript

Business Launch Wins And Fails

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, welcome back to Send It Frains at Work. We are here with Steph and Claire as always, and today we are going to be looking at stigma to strategy. So making neuroinclusion real.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yeah, we thought it was really important to kind of look at that, look at our own lived experiences about where we might have had that stigma and the impact it's had on behaviours and then some of the things that we've done to get out of it. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

And again, this week we are going to chat about our wins and fails and kind of bits that we've been getting up to. So we did have a nice laugh because obviously we've been doing podcast bits and business bits and looking at setting everything up. And today I really, I'm not gonna lie, I really, really worked to caught for lunch. Yeah, I did not just want to be having the quiche that I bought and the salad that I bought for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I was gonna say, we'd you'd already pre-bought food, haven't you? Yeah. So but we were quite indecisive, couldn't decide what we were doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

No, so instead, I thought, because today we are celebrating, yeah, we are officially a business. Yeah. So if anyone wants to look for us, we are officially the different brains group, yeah, which is kind of exciting. We've got to celebrate, we've got to go at the pub and get a nice lunch.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Um, Claire was slightly on the fence with this, so I thought, you know what? Let's ask Google basically, wasn't it? Just ask my phone. Yeah. You know, should we go out for lunch? And I did slightly weigh the options in my favour saying, you know, I feel like we're celebrating, we've just sit on the business. Of course, Google came back with absolutely go to the pub. So we went to the pub? We went to the pub, it was nice. We've got a parmo, we've got a parmo. So for anyone who's not from the northeast of England, it is basically a chicken a scallop covered in bechamel sauce and cheese. Oh yeah. Yeah, don't forget the bread pecans. Well, that's chicken a scallop, isn't it? Yeah, isn't it? A scallop? It's it's something like that. I don't know. And then obviously we're a bit fancy for me. Went meat fies and spicy all the way. Yeah. So that I feel that that was my win. That was one of my wins. That was a good win. That was a good win. It was, but what are your wins and fails this time?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Okay, so my win this week completely survived um half term. Husband was away for the week, as you know, with his own Eurodiversity, um, Eurodiverse challenge, riding his motorbike from our home to Switzerland and back again, as you do in a week. So, yeah, I was at home with the three kids, our ADHD cock spaniel, and also working, and somehow just about managed to survive. So that feeled like a massive, like a massive winning win if I'm completely honest.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

That that is a win if I'm being toilet. I mean, it's a win and a fail. It's a fail because you got stuck with your kids on your own, but actually, sometimes that's so much easier, isn't it? Because you can find routine.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

It was it that sounds awful. Um, it was so much easier. Sorry, Sai, it was so much easier when it was just me and the kids, and I wasn't having to think about like an extra person.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've already said mine are my wins. My other win this week is that my final three-year-old little child went for her first day at big school and asked me not to come in and also wouldn't come home. Oh, I mean, that's quite sad. It's sad. But it's it's brilliant though, because if you'd have met her a year ago, she hated people. Like I I I know it's bad to say, but she just hated people. I mean, family, brilliant with men, not a chance. The only men she would speak to is my husband and her grandad, and that was it. Like, even the childminder's husband, not a chance. Like anyone else in the family, my brothers, my older nephews, nobody.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

But now watching her going to school and actually and not wanting to come home, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

I feel we've turned a corner. Yeah, that sounds amazing. My fail this week, pure neurodiversity kind of thing. I was waiting for a phone call yesterday, and I think I even messaged you, didn't I? Yes. I was like, I can't do anything at the minute other than sit and wait for this phone call. I was stuck to my seat at my desk waiting for the phone call to happen, and everything that I tried to do just wasn't working.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah. And it was a good like 45 minutes after the time I thought you were gonna have it when you messaged me saying you still haven't had it. Yeah, it's fine, it happened. That's good. Well, you laugh at my fail because it's I don't know if it's neurotypical or if it's just neurotypically me. So I ordered a food subscription box. I thought I'd give it a go, you know, and you get your food sent to your door. I won't say who it is, but it rhymes with luster. Um didn't really like the last box. I was like, you know what? I'm not even wasting money on it because what's the point? Yeah. So I thought I'd cancelled it and I thought it was all done and everything. Uh I've had an email saying it's arriving tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

But I also picked like rubbish menus, so I've not even uh enjoy any of this food that's getting sent to me, and my kids certainly won't eat it.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Oh what a nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So when this arrives, I am just gonna have to hide it and hope for the best.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Well, you might be able to make other things out of it because you you you like cooking, do you not? I do, but I've still got the stuff from the last time I started this subscription and cancelled it. Okay, I would say that's definite neurodiversity fail. Yeah, got to be. How many other subscriptions do you have going, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Uh not that many because I was really good and I did cancel everything, and then I did pick up the ones that I knew I couldn't live without, like my music subscription, I did cancel it, and then literally the next day I was like, Oh, I can't live like this.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

No, exactly. No, uh mine is like there permanently, got to have it.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah, and especially for like my white noise and things like that, which helps.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, exactly.

Defining Stigma And Its Layers

SPEAKER_01 5:52

So, shall we get into the I feel like we'd just digress off and never do this otherwise. So, this one yeah, is what we mean by stigma.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, so um when we look at stigma, it's quite often people think about the word being someone being mean, but stigma can have lots of different layers within that.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah, it can. I mean, you've got the social stigma, which is all of your stereotypes and everything that come out of it. You have the internalised stigma, so that's the maybe I am too much moment.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

It's your internal voice, it's like that that person in your head who can be the meanest person.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, and who could have thought you could have been a discriminatory towards yourself? Yeah, absolutely. But there you go. Yeah, and then obviously you've got the structural stigma, so this is the systems that weren't built for us. Exactly, workplaces that we've been kind of talking about and those changes there. Yeah, and I think even you know, thinking outside the workplaces, there's a little bit of everything, isn't there? There's schools, there's different businesses. Oh god, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you could go into that one forever, couldn't you? Absolutely. Um, and then obviously you've got the micro stigma. So this I never really thought about this. This is the tiny comments that just chip away at you. Yeah, because you hear things and you're like, you know what, I'm just gonna ignore it. But then the more it happens, and the more it happens, and the more it happens, it does just chip away that self-confidence, it really does.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

And I've got an example later on, which is an example of that, and you end up making yourself smaller and smaller and smaller to fit in a place that really you probably shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can do that, can't you? Um, and then you know, it's like everyone finds that hard, or it's just kind of had to be organised. And one of my favourites is we all get distracted sometimes, it's not the same. I don't know, what do we say? You know, it's the no Janet, you don't lose the entire afternoon because a pigeon flew across the fence. Uh, well, actually, yes, you do, because I've told you this about my squirrel friend who regularly comes across my fence, and I absolutely love it. And I will just zone out, I need to move my laptop absolutely because I just love watching him. And I said, Didn't I? I even got a little squirrel table.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I mean, this is commitment. It's a picnic bench, it's tiny, I've got like a full up full-on picnic bench.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

That's what you're picturing. No, it's literally like 10-20 centimetres, little tiny picnic bench just made with some scrap wood, and I just love it. I mean, he's never sat on it, don't get me wrong, but he will come and take the fruit off it so he lean over the fence and start taking the fruit. I just love at one day I'm hoping he sits on my picnic bench.

unknown 8:34

Fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

But yeah, sorry, totally digressed. I told you you can lose an entire afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Oh, and this is like welcome to our brains. Yes, it is.

Spot The Stigma At Work

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Um, first thing want to look at is spot the stigma. I've got three questions, that's two, but three, um, it is who is the workplace designed for? Yeah, who has um who has to mask to survive her? And I think that's really important. We looked at that in our masking episode as well, didn't we? We did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

And I think it's also sorry to interrupt your questions here, but I can start to look at people and you know the masking now, it's becoming a lot more familiar.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

It does, doesn't it? It does, it does, and then last question is who gets labelled difficult?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Um, and I think my hand's up if people who can't see me, my hand is up. People who get labelled for having knees.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

So, and I think I was pointing to you as well when I said who gets labelled difficult. So, who gets labelled difficult? And I think that's a really important question because actually, if we're in a workplace and first of all, who's the workplace designed for? Yeah, I think that's a really important one. But who has to master survive and who has to who's been labelled difficult? Why have they been labelled difficult? Is it because they really are difficult, or is it because there's a different need and they need something different to happen so they're comfortable at work?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, I think as well, disclaimer some people can just be difficult. Don't get me wrong, it's not all neurodiversity needs, but yeah, I think it comes from that place of culture as well, doesn't it? And also it's being able to stand up for yourself. You're brilliant at this, and you're like, I need this, I want this, I expect this. Yeah, whereas I'm a suffering silence and then complain about it.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah. Do you know what? That's a really good point. The amount of times I'm I we have conversations, and I'm like, Steph, this is what you need to do, um, and this is what you're gonna say, and um I'm like, Can you just do it for me? Yeah, yeah. But I think there's so there's those two questions that you can ask themselves, brilliant, but then there has to be some action out of it as well, it's not good enough for that, and so quite often you can have those um you can have the companies with the posters everywhere, yes, companies with their um like social media posts going through celebrating neurodiversity, but then there isn't the follow-through.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, do you know what that's actually what's gonna come on to it? It's the very much we're aware of this, and we're doing everything that looks nice and pretty, but we're not doing anything that's actually beneficial, because that's it, it it's it's the awareness stage, so they've got the posters, but no policies that are being interactive, they've got the training, but actually no adjustments are coming in for it, so it's be aware of this, but we're not gonna do anything, and again, they're celebrating it. Everyone I see is celebrating that neurodiversity week, but all the staff are getting ignored, yeah. So, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

So, what are you doing as a result? Yeah, a social media post isn't enough.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

It's not, I don't want to say, Oh, yeah, every business needs a designated cent team because that's not what it is, and that's not gonna happen ever. It's again, we say it on every single call, reasonable adjustments, yeah, slight little changes that'll benefit everyone. We can't keep saying it any more than we could.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, that makes sense. It could kind of kind of I knew what you say.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah,

From Posters To Practical Change

SPEAKER_01 11:57

so here's the thing: like organisations love the idea of neuroinclusion, don't they, realistically? But I think they get very stuck in that strategy gap. So they want the confidence, yeah, but not the competence. Yeah, so I don't know what do they want to feel ready before they act? And spoiler alert, you're never gonna feel ready.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Well, it's like us with the podcast, isn't it? Yeah, never gonna feel ready. We just got to the point where you just need to go with it, don't you? Yeah. I uh have a friend and her motto is you fall forward, you just got to go with it.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

I like that. Yeah. I'm picturing people falling back now, but yeah, fall forward. I think as well, something's really important is more neurodiverse people need to speak up. Yeah, we need to stop suffering in silence and be like, actually, this would really help me. Actually, can we do this? Can we do that? Because businesses aren't gonna learn until someone's I don't know, mentoring them, teaching them, giving them that advice.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

It's like reverse mentoring, isn't it? Really? Um, you can do things like that, and and organisations set up that reverse mentoring scheme and and be mentored by the people that are actually the experts, the people with the lived experience. Yeah, but looking at kind of inclusion from our perspective, inclusion improves retention, that psychological safety is so so important, and with all of that, it helps them with productivity. And coming from that HR background that I come from, I fully believe if you've got people that feel safe at work, they're happy, they're enjoying what you're doing, it all kind of embeds everything in, and you've you've got a more effective and a more efficient and happy place to work, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

And like we said, like you just said that if the productivity is going to go through the roof, isn't it? Because people are valued. Yeah, I think this is why employee voice forums are massive, and I just don't think utilised properly or well enough people are asked very closed text box questions when there could be so much to get that value out of your employees and progress your environments.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Absolutely, and it's looking at the other thing is um, and I suppose that's exactly what you're saying, actually, with the um employee networks, it's about moving that inclusion j into like the processes and the systems that people are doing, so it becomes rather than kind of written in a policy, it becomes habit. Yeah, and the more it's there and the more it's in everything that everybody does, and that it's thought through and the all of the systems kind of tick along together, the easier all of it just kind of flows and it just works nicely. Sounds like a real ideal nice.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

It does sound like the perfect business, the perfect business, yeah. If you find it, let us know. But I don't think it exists yet. No, exactly, and it will though, it will give it a few years, and I think this'll hopefully take off and businesses will get this.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

I mean, I do think there are some businesses that are doing it, yeah. I absolutely do. It's just I think it's important that people are kind of shouting out about it. Yeah, so what needs to happen then realistically for this the the the the starting points?

Listening To Staff Communication Norms

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Okay, so I think and you've touched on it already with your employee networks, really straightforward, ask your teams what works for them, um, what works best for them. Stop assuming that like silence is fine. For me, when there's silence and you're not hearing back from people, actually that says to me that it's a problem. Yeah, it doesn't say that everything's alright here, it says that people are bunkering down and just getting on with things.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah, it really, really does. That's what we said, isn't it? Review those communication norms. Then you know, it doesn't have to be a full survey sent out, it can be a team's call, you know. You everyone, everyone, most people have kind of a Monday catch-up, don't they? Things like that. Just ask people how they're doing and say, actually, I want everyone to just send me a quick email, a voice note, something. How are you doing? What we could do better, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, but with that as well, I think when you're working as that team and kind of looking at that communication, it's um because you've picked up on two things there, it's looking at your communication norms as well. So you've said there your voice note, your email, it's thinking about actually one size doesn't fit fit all. But when you're looking at those communication norms, have you got the flexibility for people to be able to communicate in a way that kind of works for them?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I hadn't even considered that I've done something there, go me. Yeah, I know. Um but yeah, I find it so much easier now because if I'm writing an email, I write it corporate, I write it professional, it's got to be right, grammar's right, voice note 30 seconds doesn't matter, does it? It just goes through, you've got your point across really quick, it's done. Yeah, no, that is a really good point, and you can just move on with your life. Yeah, absolutely. No stress or pressure then. Yeah, but yeah, build the flexibility into the deadlines. I think we do have to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Absolutely, yeah, and I think we've talked before, I suppose, about how we respond best to to working. So I do like a clear deadline. Yeah, I like to know exactly what I'm doing, when I need to do it by, but for you, if it feels like a bit of a demand, that creates a different situation for you, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, it really does. I I I just don't know what it is. I know it's it's the PDA, isn't it? Just throws me off on a loop and I want to do it, I just can't, yeah, I just can't do it, and I've got to give myself time to build back into that.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, so I I think there's something there about understanding how people need to get that information and what flexibility in deadlines looks like. If I know I've got flexibility in a deadline and it doesn't really need to be done at that point, then that that does also doesn't work for me. It's got to be a hard finish, and this is when it needs to be.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, see that's it. I do need a hard finish still, because it'll get put off because you know there's always other things, but it's uh can we get done for this date? However, this is the actual deadline. Yeah, I mean it's the way you ask somebody realistically, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Do you know what that's a really good point? It's about tone, isn't it? Yeah, tone is really important, and also understanding those other pressures as well and what the other things that are going on.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, so then what do you think organisations should be doing, but definitely we think should be done this year?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

So,

Redesigning Processes With Feedback And Values

SPEAKER_00 18:15

again, I think we've already touched on this earlier on, um, and it's about redesigning processes, and I think we talk about this all the time, and that doesn't have to be a costly thing, no, but it's looking at your processes. Are they easy to follow? Have they considered kind of uh the different needs that you might have? Yes, they've got to meet an organisational need, but um how how do you have that flexibility in the process? How is it neuro inclusive? Um, so you could be looking at your different technologies that you're using within the process. Can things be automated? That always makes things a breeze, doesn't it? And I know some of these things might have a cost to it, but actually some of them don't, yeah. Um some of the some of the software and um the things that we're talking about they're already there within an organisational structure, it's just they've not been looked at from a neuroinclusion point of view before, they've been looked at from a different perspective. And I think looking at those processes with the people that are using them and getting a real cross like cut of those people that really helps as well. It's the feedback, isn't it? Getting that positive feedback, definitely. But then absolutely with the feedback, I always I get quite passionate about this, I will shut up in a minute. But with the feedback, it's really important that you then tell people what you've done with it. Yes, it's no good going out for your surveys and going out and getting feedback if you're not yeah, A, if you're not gonna do anything with it, and B, you don't tell people about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah, I do love the you said we listened, this is what we did.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Exactly, it's a really straightforward table, that's it. Yeah, and you value the pick the people feel valued again, it's gonna go up, you're gonna get that trust in your employees. Exactly. The other thing, so again, I'm very passionate as a HR professional. I completely believe in values, and so as a HR person, I think that's really important to have your the values and the values of the organisation embedded in everything that you're doing because it's not good enough just to have it written on a piece of paper. Yeah, it's got to be through behaviours, it's got to be through the expectations, and where people aren't demonstrating that, it's talking to them about it and understanding why not. So when you're looking at that, how do you it's looking at embedding that neuroinclusion element within your values, within your leadership behaviour, and looking at how it then becomes a habit? So you've got really clear expectations around how people are treated, yeah, the adjustments that uh that are going to be put in place, um, what it feels like to be in that workplace where it's inclusive, all of that helps. But this isn't a quick fix, it's about changing culture. Culture takes such a long time. It does. Do you know what I'm smiling? Because I was just letting you go off when you little tangent now. I'll get it. I've done my soapbox so much about this. I like it's I I am so passionate about that. But my soapbox of preach.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Sorry, I knew a little song was gonna come out. Um, it's in my head now, it's not gonna go away.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, I love that you you got very, very into that, didn't you? I am I am like it, I just I it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Anyway, no, I completely agree. Uh you know, I'm all for kind of the values and the culture and everything like that. It's just it's the it's the inclusion of everything. Yeah, exactly. So thinking then, yeah. I'm gonna make you talk a bit more, thinking about lived experience, you know, real deep dive into it. Yeah,

Lived Stories Of Micro Stigma

SPEAKER_01 21:52

we've all experienced stigma, haven't we? It's all affected everyone differently. Top of your head, if you've got kind of a story that you can think about of yourself when you've

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Oh, we've had it. Absolutely. And for me, it like started to impact my confidence and everything else. So for years, never kind of I've never openly disclosed like neurodiversity at at all. Um I've always just kind of got on with things and that is very much me. But it's not so I've never disclosed it not for any other reason, other than I I suppose I never really saw the point. Very early on, like within work, I got loads of always got feedback that how I naturally communicated was wrong, it was either too much, it was too blunt, or it might not have been professional enough. And then my favourite was it was too formal. So I spent so many times, I suppose, being told that the words that I chose or the way that I expressed myself wasn't right. So, and could I tweak this and could I do that? And you're being too blunt when you're talking to that person, or maybe you need to soften your tone. Yeah, you can't say it like that, or you're sounding too formal that I started to overthink. So I was uh with this, I almost lost myself. You get to a point where you're kind of internalizing all of that, and that links back to that stigma of self-talk as well, because then you start to believe it, don't you? So there was one moment that really stuck with me. So I was on a training course, and it was yeah, it was a it was a workplace thing, and we were doing some sort of exercise, and I haven't I cannot remember what the exercise was, but I had I had to say something about someone, so I said I appreciated whatever I I did, and I can't remember the rest of it other than I'd used the word I appreciated. Well, and to me that's a total total normal phrase, there's nothing unusual about that, except the person that was facilitating it completely singled me out, mocked me for using the phrase, said I sounded really weirdly formal and really robotic, and so yeah, the whole thing. So after that, you start to go, actually, I don't really want to speak out in the training courses anymore. And you start to shut yourself down, exactly. So all of a sudden, and then you start to believe all the other things that people are saying to you. Yeah, chipped away very slowly, and then started to second guess myself, and you I don't know whether you will hear the phrase from me all the time, does that make sense? Yes, and that is where that's where it all stemmed from. Never did it before any of that experience, and I do it all the time now because I'm quite concerned that I might say something that might offend somebody, yeah. So I got smaller and I got quieter and I got less myself, and I completely lost like my voice, and you start sp you stopped speaking up, and eventually completely lost like who I was. So then found a different strategy. So I was working with a coach, yeah, and because I'd completely I didn't know who I was anymore, that sounds really over dramatic. Sounds really sad. It was, it was like really didn't know who I was anymore. Worked with a coach and basically made up this person, and I drew them on a purse, uh, on a piece of paper and I carried it around with me. And this sounds really sad now as well. Carried it around with me, but I wrote on the personality traits that I wanted to demonstrate when I wasn't feeling confident. I wrote these on a piece of paper, never showed it to anybody, and then when I was in these moments where I wasn't feeling confident, I'd pull it out quickly, remind myself, and I'd start demonstrate, I'd start doing those behaviours and having those personality traits, and they felt really foreign to start off with. But actually, I got it was about me building up my confidence because there was nothing in there that I couldn't do, and it was nothing in there that wasn't me, it was just I'd completely lost myself. So, um yeah, from that moment of someone telling me, and that it was that micro stigma and those little moments, it's they it was from there, and then it just becomes self-talk. But that's isn't it bad that one person can have such an effect on you?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

And that's probably they were probably a neurodiverse person themselves. I know quite quite possibly, yeah. And I have wondered that since, you know, and you just kind of wonder um, do you understand the impact that like those little things have on people?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, people anyone can be a trainer, but not anyone can be a coach. Yeah, you've got to have that developing and that understanding. Ah, that's like a really an emotional story. I like that. Thanks for sharing. You're welcome. I'm trying to. In our sharing circle. I don't even have anything that dramatic if I'm being totally honest. It kind of resonates a lot with things that I've gone through. So I was always told, God, you talk so much. Do you ever shut up? I remember as a child, everybody told me. And I just laughed it off as a child. And actually, as I got older, I was like, Oh, I don't think anybody ever liked me. I feel like my family probably didn't like me, you know, friends' parents, school teachers. I remember school teachers being like, Do you ever shut up? No, no, I don't, clearly. I think we've learnt that, but it does all have that effect, and then you being told, you're being too emotional about things, you're becoming overwhelmed, and it just it's funny because I've kind of I've still got that chipping away, so it's still the micro stigma, and it's very much I'm I'm the most extroverted introvert you've ever met in your life. Do you think? And honestly, in my head, I can walk past someone now and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna say hi unless they say hi, or I I will not speak in meetings, you'll hear this, and everyone's like, You didn't say anything, I will not speak up in meetings because I just I refuse to because I think I'm being massively judged, and that's how it's always been, and I force my personality to come out unless I'm with people that I really really trust.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, but it is that, and it I like you were saying, it stays with you, doesn't it? It does, yeah. So you you never lose that experience, it's just part of you, but yeah, you just find different ways to kind of cope with it, which is completely wrong.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, like I I know I think we've established this by now, even on the podcast, I will word vomit anything that comes out in my head. I love that though, it just comes out, and sometimes I'll say things and I'm like, oh, is that offensive? Is that rude? Are they gonna get really annoyed at me? Probably, yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Um but do you find then that your rejection sensitivity comes in because of that?

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Massively. And I find certain people will make it more on high alert as well. Really? So being around certain people who I know I don't want to say that they're oversensitive or anything like that, but just not the right puzzle piece to fit with my jigsaw.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I like that. Yeah, that's a really good description.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I just totally made that up on the spot. Oh no, I like that. I liked it too. I'm gonna keep that one.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah, but yeah, strategy's spot on it though.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

No, no, it's still there. Oh, good. Uh kind of it's going. Um, but yeah, strategies for this one I think are hard. I think it fits very, very much with kind of the strategies that you've got and that you put in. To fit

Scripts Agendas Sensory Adjustments That Help

SPEAKER_01 28:58

it into kind of a work environment, a lot of it is just taking the time to have the courage to start speaking out, isn't it? Yeah, but like I say, when you sit quietly in meetings or you know, thinking you're gonna forget things or you don't want to speak up, yeah. You know, we said it before, haven't we? Written agendas, I think, are definitely gonna help people build the confidence because you can think of the answers beforehand, you can have that time to go over it and think, do you know what it's not a stupid answer? Actually, it's quite a clever answer. Yes, I would like to put it out there.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Because how many times do we leave? And we're like, I wish I'd said that. Even when you argue with somebody, say your lovely husband, and you walk away and you're like, Oh, funny I had an agenda to this argument beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

But mine will happen like about two to three business days after the argument, and then I'll be like, Oh my gosh, I've got the best comeback ever.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Mine's ten minutes, and I'll just shout it through the door and then we'll leave. But yeah, I think needing a script is always helpful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, for and I suppose it kind of comes back, loops back to what we're saying, having a script in your mind. I have like certain phrases that I'll keep on coming back to, and they might sound like filler ones, but it it's looking at having a set yeah, set words, that script, to help you ask for things. What from an employee's point of view, really straightforward, I work best when. So you're not disclosing that you're not we've done that in school as well, haven't we? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, so I work best when, or you can support me by again, you're not disclosing it that you're neurodiverse, you're just saying actually, you can by doing this, you will be supporting me better, or whatever it is helps me deliver my best work.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Absolutely, and please note you cannot ask for a Prosecco wine feeder in your office. That is not gonna help you work better. Are you sure? Um, well, this is strictly advice, it might, but yeah, but kind of from a manager's point of view, yeah, give the most effective support, can't they? Really, I suppose rather make it.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Well, they're the people that are gonna be with you, well, not all the time, let's face it, unless you've got a micromanager, but they are the people that can either make help you thrive or not. Yeah, I don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

And I think knowing that you've got that support is gonna really help. So, you know, what can I do to make this easier for you? How easy it's say, right, this is what's coming up, this is what we need to do. What can I do to make this easier for you to do? What support do you need with it? What can we put in place? You know, what's gonna get in your way? One that kind of doesn't come out but should is what can we do to change this environment?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, do you know some but do you think sometimes and I suppose this comes back to the whole point of the podcast? Sometimes the environment factor just isn't there. So we talked about um I can't remember which episode it was, but you were talking about the lights and um lights on the screen and having them down and things like that. That's such a minor environment like adjust adjustment that you can do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

So really it's not it's not doable because we did work in an office block, or I worked an office block a little while ago, a long time ago. No windows, brightest light you've ever had, but it's just where you had to be, and honestly, it was awful. But luckily, they had a kind of like a meeting zone in the downstairs which had views out into the river, no lights on, and it was perfect. Do you notice um like electricity buzzing? Yeah, I saw a post about this, and they were like, it's not true, people can't hear electricity. Apparently, it's 10 decibels. I don't think it's the fact that it's the loudness of it, I think it's just there.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah, it's like it's buzzing, and I have to admit, my hearing isn't as brilliant as it used to be, so I don't hear it as much. But now my girls they are constantly complaining about hearing the buzzing, yeah. Um, and I I get it, it's so it's so annoying.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

I can absolutely hear it. I I don't know whether it's because I've got about 15 charges plugged in one extension, and that's why I can hear it. But yeah, when I think that's a fire risk. When I first heard this thing, I was like, nobody can hear electric. And obviously, my lovely Neurospicy son was like, Yeah, you can. Yeah, what are you talking about? And now, if you actually listen, all listeners, please go and listen and see if you can hear electricity because you have to be.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

We need to make sure that everything else is switched off, obviously. Well, like you don't have the radio on, is what I mean. And your washer blast in a way, exactly, you're not gonna hear it at that point.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Do you need to have something like charges or the internet box? Oh, you're not gonna hear it. I see your point, but yeah, don't have the TV on, is what I mean. Yeah, but yeah, sorry, bringing it back in because this is generally us, isn't it? Making your inclusion real.

Real Neuroinclusion Daily Practice And Leadership

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yeah, so real neuroinclusion isn't a programme, it is practice, it's the everyday stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, it is. So, um again, this is I feel like we've got to repeat each time we do an episode. So clear communication, clarity, that is all I want. Yeah, what do you want? Clarity. I'm getting into the our own joke. Um, flexible work design, psychological safety, that is so so important. I it just just leaders that listen to to what you're doing, doing, but not just listen, do something with need to do something with that listening, yeah. And then systems that don't punish um difference. I think that's so important if you recognise that you've got that um that collection of of people that aren't all robotic and need different things, that is so so important.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not about fixing the people, is it? It is fixing the environment. Exactly. We've said this already. Think about the light, the noise, the sensory overload. Can you cut down that very loud electricity sound that's going through your building? No, but it's nice, it's just it's having it set up, isn't it, to be comfortable for everyone. Have a water machine, it's actually nice to have cold water available in offices. Not many places have that anymore. I don't like cold water, not like really cold.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

You can get ones with hot and cold now, can't you? As well, yeah, yeah, you can. Yeah, um, anyway, there you go. Clearly, we need to need um complex water machines for both of us. So we I've already talked about communication, work design. Again, with the work design, one thing that we didn't say, autonomy, said it so many times before, but you've got your flexibility, brilliant. So for for us, we've said before remote working is brilliant, but the the flexibility of being able to go and work with different people as well is perfect, and autonomy over your work, having that micromanager is not brilliant, but give me the tools to do what what I need to do, perfect. I can get on with it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

And then leadership, I feel like I probably can't talk about leadership because I've already said I don't appreciate the micromanaging, the poor leadership, the fact that we're saying this but we're not going to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, but then there's a positive, you can have amazing leaders, like amazing leader leads, and I think for if I can even get my words out, but something again I'll get on my soapbox about this, but um where you've got where you've got those fantastic leaders, it's all about role modelling. Yes, um, and where they take that seriously, you can then start to see that change in behaviours from everybody else, so then the next person role models and the next person role models, and you get a lovely culture, as if it was all like that easy. I know it's not.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

I class it still as magpie in, taking other people's good behaviour, modelling it.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Good description of it. Yeah, that is such a good yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I think we can we can all learn things from other people, we can learn not to copy their behaviours when it's something we don't agree with, and we can learn to take on the good bits that I've modelled people that I've worked with before and thought, you know what, I love the way they do that. That's the kind of person I want to be, that's the kind of leadership I want to do. When I grow up, well, that was rude, but you're absolutely right, please. But yeah, it's that curiosity, it's that humility, and again it's that consistency of it all, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, so I think it's it's do you know, take one moment this week to really, really think about this.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah, I think so, and um with all of this, reflective practice. I'm always happy on about reflective practice, but it is so important to change things, be it you're reflecting on the environment, your own behaviours, or something else that you've seen, you can pull that into kind of what you're doing, can't you? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah, absolutely for that one.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

So we are going to send stigma packing.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yep, we are. We're gonna think about, you know, send strategy into your calendar. Exactly. We're gonna send one small change into your team. Yeah, and send yourself some compassion while you're at it. Get rid of that micro stigma because we all do it.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Let's just kick it out the door. Exactly.

Closing Invite Your Stories

SPEAKER_00 37:59

So thank you for listening to our podcast. Um, if you've got any stories or chaos moments, as you can see, we've got plenty, or any workplace dilemmas, then send them our way.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, and we hope you've really enjoyed this episode because we've decided to leave it completely unedited and leave all of the good bits and the laughs in. And hopefully you'll like it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

We'll see you next time. Thank you. Bye.

Listener Disclaimer

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Our conversations are based around our own experiences, ideas, and perspectives. They are intended for general discussion and entertainment only. If you need guided support or advice, whether professional, personal, medical, legal, financial, or otherwise, please seek help from a qualified professional. By listening to this podcast, you understand and agree that the hosts are not responsible for any actions you choose to take based on what you hear.